I’ve been intermittently toying with the idea of fitting an Anti-Limescale device to the water supply in our home.
Today, with the delivery of a new phone book, I got a flyer describing a product called ScaleWatcher which reminded me of my occasional curiosity with the subject. It’s a nice convincing-looking flyer, with a money back guarantee, so I’m tempted to give it a go.
We have a nice glass sided kettle so it’ll be really obvious if it actually works.
I may be forced to try a little experiment and take daily pictures of my kettle, so please spare me from the madness and give me some definite answers:
- Has anyone I know actually used a household electric water softener?
- Was the experience worthwhile?
- Are they any better than the magnetic or salt based ones?
Hi
Here’s the link…finally
http://www.littleplumber.com/customertestimonials.html
The De Vere letter is at the bottom of the list
Rich,
Is there more than one “Gavin” posting to this site?
For at least two posts, there is a Gavin the interested/sceptical and economical consumer and then, there is Gavin (B) the manufacturer.
This is intended as a completely non accusative inquiry…just curious!
Gavin(or Gavins)…no offense intended!
X
Yes, The De Vere letter is at the bottom of the list.
Not exactly a letter from a consumer without profit motivated interests…or did I miss something?
X
Here we are almost 5 years later on when the leading question was posted: Do electronic lime-scale inhibitors work? Confusion seems to be perpetual and obviously off-putting for the many would-be purchasers. My advice, for what it is worth, is to be very cautious of electronic devices and to those that have purchased them in the past to be vigilant of what may be taking place.
The simple answer is yes, on occasions, they do appear to work to clean up some sections of pipework and some genuine testimonials are no doubt gained but at what cost. I tend to think along the lines that you do not get something for nothing from any technology…….something must give.
In recent times numerous manufacturers have strayed from the basic well established sacrificial anode technology (the giving aspect) in pursuit of modern trends towards anything electronic, especially as this provides an opportunity for salesmen to tell a compelling “new-science” story to the gullible and with a bit of sales luck they manage to sell not one device but maybe three to a household; one on the mains intake, one just before the water heater and one on the outlet from a break-storage tank.
The point that I am getting to is the role that corrosion plays in precipitating calcium carbonate and that corrosion exists in practically all water systems to some degree or other and this from day one. It’s this hidden fact that enables electronic devices to have any form of success at limiting or reducing the formation of hard lime-scale deposits.
I give credit to at least one of the manufacturers as they openly state that their product requires a source of metallic ions to function but from where…….? Before and after photographs seem to “advertise” the fact that during the elimination of lime-scale the pipes become progressively more vulnerable to being leached into the flow of water, with countless micro galvanic cells eating into the pipe walls but this can only good for the function of electronic devices.
The only way to be assured that protection and energy savings are optimised is to make the inner surfaces of the pipes etc., passive with an anode technology, preferably using zinc in a system that is maintained below 60ºC in order to avoid reversion and the flow to be no more than 2 mps., to limit erosion. This I believe to be the best solution, especially when pipes are hidden behind walls and under floors and this applies to systems that are fed with “soft” water.
Why consider electronic devices with their 100+ days of money-back guarantees when the latest anode technology, currently in its final stage of development, has the solution to the past weakness of well established, scientifically acknowledged technologies. The new product is designed to operate 100% of the time, without the need for adjustments, without re-programming, without periodic cleaning the anode with chemicals, without an electrical supply or flashing lights, without concern for variable flow-rates, without concern for how “hard or soft” the water and all this until the anode is finally depleted and ready for its 5 minutes replacement. Costs are also brought down to Earth.
I’m sorry guys but this is where I must declare an obvious vested interest in the product.
Sadly it is quite obvious that Andrea doesn’t have much of a clue as to how conditioners work. Can you explain the “corrosion” bit ANDREA?
An interesting point Gavin, and this is why I’ve moved from asking generally “do these things work” to asking for some more scientific evidence (and why it’s continually disappointing that vendors such as yourself have repeatedly failed to provide it).
Rich,
there is clear documented proof that sugar pills can help to aleviate the painful symptoms of arthritis…not to mention many other illnesses, diseases and discomforts.
If a customer buys an electronic gizmo, installs it and is so inspired to apply a bit of extra effort…while trying to test its effectiveness, who are we to step on their sugar pills?
Perhaps these devices are purely motivational…?
All belief systems require varying degrees of personal perserverance… and few have much substantiation.
There is a big difference between believing in an accepting manner and believing in a working manner.
Without going too far into beliefs and belief systems or in other words going on a tangent, I THINK that there is a certain degree of need to believe in these devices without proof but not without extra effort.
This is obviously not the religion of water treatment and I would encourage those concerned to THINK, examine the real evidence that is NOT BEING PRESENTED and evaluate just how much extra personal effort they have expended towards believing that these thingamabobs work.
Anybody willing to put the effort into coming to an understanding with what has been presented so far shouldnt even be questioning whether this is a workable solution…or not.
Where are the facts?
This is a challenge that has been ignored from every possible angle.
Where are the facts?
X
It’s quite easy to prove whether or not an electronic descaler works or doesn’t… WATCH FOR THE SCALE TO BUILD UP!
I have a swamp cooler and scale build up on our pad (we have one of those really awesome single pad evap coolers from Phoenix Mfg.) is a real hassle.
Previously, the scale buildup was greyish and horrible. Clogged up the pad and made it weigh a ton! We were using something called a “Haku Water Conditioner”, hooked up to our water inlet line and I don’t think it did a thing.
Recently, we’ve purchased a “Scale Eliminator” cartridge (like for a refrigerator ice maker) and the scale buildup is much less and whitish in color, so I think it must be working… probably seriously overloaded, handling a near constant flow of water to the cooler, but… I can tell something is different.
If a passive (magnetic) or active (electronic) “descaler” is effective, you will notice far less mineral deposits on your cooler pads over the course of a season or two of use, as I have with the “Scale Eliminator” cartridge (different device, but same effect desired).
I think a single pad swamp cooler is the best/fastest way to see effective results, because if the minerals don’t stick to the pad, your pad will look wet, but almost new, year after year, til the pad just dies from normal age, not scale buildup!
Now, I think one way these Descaler sellers could convince me to purchase their product is to send one to me at a 50-75% discount, on the condition that I document the results of it’s use and, upon seeing the desaired result within a season or two of use, pay the remainder of the full price.
Afterall, if you KNOW your product will work, why would you be worried to wait a little while for the customer to see the result you KNOW they will see?
People who trust their products and KNOW their products are as good as they advertise, are willing to put their money where their mouth is.
You don’t need to “believe” in the unseen (sugar pill effect), if visible proof is what the device is supposed to show you. Just look for the result the product is supposed to offer. If you DON’T see scale buildup, great. If you do… then you know the product is a sham.
I will be more than glad to test one of these devices, if someone will buy one for me (I don’t have $500-$1,000 or more to spend on such a device). I will take pictures as often as requested, with a time/date stamp in the picture.
If the product works, I will PROVE it and put all doubt aside. If it doesn’t… I will still PROVE it and put all doubt aside.
Andrea,
First, I will give you some credit for the home-work you have done… but I must ask if your intent is to offer a prophylactic for pipe corrosion or lime scale?
These two subjects are undoubtedly related but concern two entirely different aspects of water delivery systems.
It would appear to me that you and at least one other contributor to this site may be in direct competition on the corrosion front but if I am not mistaken, the subject that ignited this site was limescale prevention.
To put it another way, it would appear that at least two contributors to this site are offering ways to help insure that water…of whatever quality could potentially emerge from pipes whose lives (the pipes) could theoretically be extended.
This does not appear to say anything for the quality of the water emerging from these pipes…and it does concern me that whatever has been added to protect metal..in whatever form may not be especially healthy for the biological units that said water is supposed to benefit.
Two completely different subjects are now being discussed on this site and in fact, they (the two) have had a child.
That child is human health.
All aspects must be considered in light of the fact that at least some of this water will be consumed.
Everlasting pipes and spot free bathroom fixtures mean nothing if nobody is left to call it good…agreed?
Sacrificial anode… or whatever technology implies that something is being allowed or caused to (electrochemically) rot into the water for the purpose of protecting non-living mechanisms but says nothing for those who may actually consume the water.
Life in itself is based on a delicate balance of chemicals and electrochemistry and at the core of this is water…at least here on earth.
Clean pipes and shiny shower handles mean nothing if nobody is around to admire them.
This is not a personal attack…but it may well be a general attack.
Man has existed for quite some time consuming and bathing in the stuff that now appears to be an irritant.
Lime or mineral scale saved the Romans from death from their lead-pipe technology (look it up!).
To all concerned and to all who appear to show little to no concern I say this: Profiting Blindly on the alteration of the water molecule and its naturally occouring mineral/chemical partners with anything less than a complete understanding of the long term biological effects is nothing short of a crime.
And many do not care.
X
Rich
Sorry I haven’t been blogging recently….too busy selling Little Plumbers. Yes it seems there is another Gavin out there.
Regards
Gavin (B)
This is perhaps the bottom line…?
There are scientists…people who actually attempt to understand the world from as many aspects as it is possible for each of them to grasp that are interested in this subject (water conditioning)…in an informed manner.
They do not appear to comment on sites like this and as an analytical commentator, I must surmise that they choose not to comment because this is not only a poorly defined science but a potentially dangerous one.
Those seeking profit while ignoring the clear lack of reinforcing and or counter-benfecial evidence as relates to what they are promoting could be playing with fire for generations yet unborn.
Water is the essence of life here on mother earth and if you cannot guarantee that your product offerings represent a better biological situation than letting the pipes rot, the shower fixtures corrode and the Tea Kettle scale up, you are simply a profiteer.
Tape worms were once sold in the American West as a miracle weight-loss mechanism with the claim of “no ill effects”.
Anybody ready to swallow one of these “miracles” in today’s (better)informed society?
If you cannot offer even so much as a scientifically-backed partial substantiation for the claims you present with some slight degree of credibility…why are you wasting the world’s time?
The day of the small-print advertisement about tape-worms in a tiny wild-west newspaper are done and gone.
You now speak to the world when you post claims on the WWW.
You are open to comments just like the one you are now reading…on a world-wide-basis.
Now, your potential is greater than ever if you can offer proper substantiation…and smaller than ever if can cannot or choose not to do so.
Where is (what is the opinion of) the SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY (which is growing exponentially) on this subject?
Are there no experts willing to back or flush (yes a toilet reference) this subject?
X
Gavin,
I couldn’t help but notice your comment that read as follows:
Sadly it is quite obvious that Andrea doesn’t have much of a clue as to how conditioners work. Can you explain the “corrosion” bit ANDREA?
Perhaps it is time for you Gavin to step up and explain the referenced subject and better yet, how it applies to the product you promote.
I am not defending Andrea…or anybody for that matter; however, you appear to have gone on the attack so I would like to know what is in your arsenal before I can offer up any sort of respect for your comments.
Get just as technical and complex as you choose to so long as you base your comments on reality and factual information.
Conversely, you can simply tell me that I dont have a clue…or just ignore me and either way, we will all know where we stand.
X
It would appear… No, actually it is pretty clear that those offering electronic water conditioners do not have much more than unsubstantiated claims to offer up.
At this point in time, nobody has offered up anything to even suggest in a factual manner that this is no more than wishful thinking that results in profits for the undeserving.
How about presenting something more than fantasy?
All you have to do is present proof and your market is set!
Otherwise, all you are offing is “stuff to toy with” that some may temporairly believe in….perhaps even so much as to write a “testimonial”.
Unfortunately for the masses, it is extremely rare for the writer of a personal testimonial to write a second commentary that starts out with “Upon further review…”.
It is even rarer that such a second looks makes a public appearance.
As such, testimonials typically represent a first opinion that the testifier is far to embarrased to counterclaim.
If you are going to accept honestly earned cash, ofer up some proof that you honestly earn the cash you accept.
x
Lunns of Farnborougth…LP stockists for 10 years
Winchmore Hill Plumbing …LP stockists for 10 years
P.J.Drew Caversham…LP stockists for 10 years
123 Plumbing & Heating Poole…stock and fit LP’s Corgie registered 10 years
I mean really WOULD THEY really stock and sell my products if they didn’t work? Ask them. And do you know what….THEY NEVER GET ONE BACK AND HAVE REPEAT CUSTOMERS!
PS: Your spell checker isn’t working!
Cheers
Gavin
Health issues aside I simply cannot see how applying a low level of RF to the outside of a copper pipe can have the slightest effect on the contents of that pipe. Surely the “skin effect” simply won’t allow the energy to enter the pipe?
I do feel there is a large placebo effect going on here, if you spend enough money on a product it must do some good and if you believe strongly enough you will see the results.
If these units are generating an RF field I also wonder how much radio interference they create?
John W.