Do electronic limescale inhibitors work?
I’ve been intermittently toying with the idea of fitting an Anti-Limescale device to the water supply in our home.
Today, with the delivery of a new phone book, I got a flyer describing a product called ScaleWatcher which reminded me of my occasional curiosity with the subject. It’s a nice convincing-looking flyer, with a money back guarantee, so I’m tempted to give it a go.
We have a nice glass sided kettle so it’ll be really obvious if it actually works.
I may be forced to try a little experiment and take daily pictures of my kettle, so please spare me from the madness and give me some definite answers:
- Has anyone I know actually used a household electric water softener?
- Was the experience worthwhile?
- Are they any better than the magnetic or salt based ones?
352 Comments
All this side stepping sent the staff here at Pipe Dream scrambling for a new marketing angle.
To guarantee or not, that is the question.
The legal department convinced the board (Cedar or mahogany…I’m not sure) that a EULA with an implied guarantee would be the safest route to take.
The advance pay fee for the EULA activation has yet to be decided upon but the custodial staff were overheard tossing out numbers from “seventeen” to “one point two million”.
They then pinched some blanket weed and headed for the loft where we found them later…venting their tanks.
Despite their embarassment, Floyd (AKA “the broom guy”) was able to explain that the common consumer’s understanding just wasnt “with it”. We have no idea what he meant and neither did he when pressed for an explanation.
I’ll have to get back to you on this.
X
Rich, what I think you’re doing is confusing the product with the product’s effect, and even still getting it wrong. Let me explain with an analogy that is used often:
If you have high cholesterol you might try an alternative medicine – a tea. Okay then, what I’m saying to you is that if you buy these tea bags from me every two years then it will keep your arteries free of cholesterol. So the guarantee is that as long as you buy the tea bags then you will be high-cholesterol free. However, you’re still getting the product’s guarantee wrong anyway. If you buy the first tea bag and decide never to buy fresh ones, and in 20 years time the tea bag splits – then we’ll give you your money back even though you didn’t buy the new tea bags!
So, buy the LimeStop (the product), replace it every two years (fresh Silisphos) and we’ll guarantee that you won’t get limescale as described above (the effect). Do you see? What we’re guaranteeing is the EFFECT – that you won’t get limescale. But we go even further than that, we actually guarantee the product forever too – if you NEVER replace it and it cracks in 20 years or whatever we’ll give you your money back!
Crikey, try and find anyone that not only guarantees that the product will perform as stated, but guarantees the product itself forever too! Where you appear to have the wrong end of the stick is that you feel I’m offering you an anti-misting cloth, and saying that as long as you buy a new anti-misting cloth then we’ll guarantee that cloth forever. No, we’re saying if you keep buying the new anti-misting cloth then we guarantee that your windows will never mist up (the effect of the product). But, as I said, we go even further than that. If you don’t replace your cloth and it tears in 20 years then we’ll give you your money back.
Sorry for all the analogies, but the guarantee/s are certainly not disingenuous at all, they are totally genuine. The LimeStop HAS to be replaced so that the fresh one has fresh Siliphos inside. Providing you do that then you won’t get limescale.
To answer your first question, no it wouldn’t be economic for us to recycle and refurbish them due to the cleaning that would be required. Customers are kept on record and informed by card when the replacement is due.
Similarly if you buy more cornflakes, you can continue to eat. If you don’t buy more cornflakes, you cannot eat. If however an empty box breaks, you’d give a refund…?
Question for any techie present -
Will a hard-water test kit before and after show if an electronic gizmo is working?
(There’s no way you’re ever going to be convinced whatever anybody says x – I’d buy a TwinTec if I were you!!!)
That’d probably depend on what the test kit is testing for, what mechanism it’s using to test for it, and how sensitive the kit is. Is there a particular kit you’re thinking of using?
No, the test kit won’t work because water conditioners don’t remove the salts in the water. The salts are still there.
Rich.
“Similarly if you buy more cornflakes, you can continue to eat. If you don’t buy more cornflakes, you cannot eat. If however an empty box breaks, you’d give a refund…?”
Terrible, isn’t it? I mean, what a useless guarantee!…
Like I said, I’ll leave it to the intelligence of your readers to make up their own minds on whether offering a forever guarantee (that being on the effect it will have on limescale formation) is a good and worthwhile thing or not. I’ll bow out of this fruitless conversation, thanks.
Fruitless? Ok, lets make it fruity. Send me one. If there’s no scale after two years I’ll keep buying and you’ll have the best advert money can buy. I’ll do a nice “unboxing” article, and throw in a few pictures of the inside of the kettle and the nice black sink area that shows up limescale.
GM,
If it appeared that I discounted your reported results, let me assure you that that was not my intent.
I believe you already know this but all I was intending to ascertain was whether or not the playing field was truly level.
Further, I feel that your posts carry more respectability than most due to the wait and see approach you have taken.
If my approach or my funning around hit a nerve with you, it was not my intent to do so.
Admittedly, I have little respect for what appears to be a pseudo science and its promoters but that is only because they fail to provide facts or offer up claims that cannot be substantiated.
Unfortunately, there does not appear to be a set of standards against which these products can be evaluated.
Even more unfortunate for the consumer is the fact that there dosent appear to be any credible involvement by any credible agency bound to accountability.
For now, that is where people like you and your wife come in to play.
I am not unconvinceable…just very skeptical.
x
Rich. This is not how physical limescale inhibitors of this type work. As I pointed out to gmpeters above, after treatment by a physical limescale inhibitor, the calcium and magnesium is still there. Neither the calcium or the magnesium have gone anywhere. In the case of silicate-polyphosphate they have been temporarily sequestrated. This is why the LimeStop and its rival actually works. There’s no smoke and mirrors, or hit’n'miss that you get with magnetic or electronic inhibitors. It’s also why such inhibitors suit flowing water appliances such as combination boilers. As the calcium and magnesium is still there then it will not stop a kettle scaling up UNLESS you ensure that the kettle is emptied of its boiled water every time. As this is rarely carried out by users then the kettle would not stay scale-free. Water softeners work by removing calcium and magnesium ions and replacing them with sodium ions – and would keep a kettle scale-free. HOWEVER, you cannot drink artificially-softened water, so you cannot use it in your kettle. Although it has a metallic taste, there is actually more sodium in a glass of milk or a slice of bread than there is in a glass of artificially-softened water, and is therefore harmless. The only way to ensure a scale-free kettle is to use a filter, such as a reverse osmosis system or de-alk resin. We have heard two reports from customers that a well-known water filter kept their kettle scale-free, though this is unlikely as the particular filter merely contains activated carbon (for taste). The LimeStop and its rival remain, in our opinion, the ONLY physical limescale inhibitors that work. Believe me, we have tested almost all of the magnetic and electronic ‘inhibitors’ at some point in the past, and found them to be useless. Although some users have reported success, others have reported complete failure. And a little while ago we were removing one Hydropath a week during our domestic descaling work. It’s this hit’n'miss that makes these products unreliable. You must also understand that obviously I know things about such products that I cannot state here for fear of being involved in lengthy and distressing legal battles. I say again to anyone thinking of buying ANY limescale inhibitor, go by what the ‘Drinking Water Inspectorate’ advise on magnetic and electrical conditioning devices:
“…not all products on the market give satisfactory performance. You are advised not to buy one of these devices unless the supplier will agree to a sale or return, subject to satisfactory performance.”
And that’s why we offer the ‘forever’ guarantee on the LimeStop. We WILL give you your money back if it doesn’t work – because we KNOW it will. Simply ask your supplier if they will give you your money back if, in 10 years time, the appliance re-scales. A little while back we contacted a major manufacturer of a very well-known electronic inhibitor (as we had a few requests from customers who preferred something they could fit themselves). We had a very convivial conversation with their managing director – until we stated that in order to purchase a large number of his product we would have to have a money-back guarantee for our customers. He flatly refused and said that it wouldn’t be at all possible. The conversation ended there, but spoke more about his product than he could do! And this product is very widely advertised.
Cornflakes…
It seems simple enough:
Guarantee the performance of the product for the duration of its rated duty cycle…and nothing more.
Questions:
If I owned a Hotel and if I installed a unit that adds or has the potential to add a reactive agent such as silicate-polyphosphate to the flow of water, should my guests be informed of this fact?
See: “silicate-polyphosphate”.
Is this unit intended to stop scale spots and accumulation on surfaces or in vessels where the water part of the mix is exaporated away or are the effects primarily in the pipes and heat-exchange equipment?
Is the output of such a unit intended for drinking quality water or process quality water such as is used in a HVAC chiller/heat exchanger system in a large building?
x
x. Silicate-polyphosphate is a food-grade material. It conforms to EN1208:2005 [chemicals used for treatment of water intended for human consumption] and also conforms to WHO standards for drinking water supplies. The LimeStop container itself is potable copper with standard industry brass fittings. So my answer would be no, you wouldn’t have to inform your hotel guests, just as you wouldn’t inform them of all the ingredients that would go into their food during their stay.
Siliphos-based water conditioners will not stop ‘scale spots’ as you mention. The effect is indeed primarily in the pipes and heat exchanger. It both sequestrates the calcium and magnesium, and lays down a very thin layer of silicate-polyphosphate that ‘lines’ the pipes. The LimeStop can even be used in soft water areas to protect the inside walls of pipes from attack, and will also prevent ‘blue water’ – where the minerals in the copper pipe can leach out in aggressive soft water areas.
As for chillers and AC equipment then you would have to contact the manufacturer of the unit. But seeing as the dosing from a LimeStop is merely 3 parts per million then I certainly cannot see that it would be a problem. Thanks for your interest.
Can I just say for others who may have questions that there is a comprehensive FAQ list here http://www.limestop.co.uk
Here is a rockin’ little design for an experimental* random field generator:
Procure a low power FM stereo and about 10 or more feet of common insulated (good quality) lamp cord and two eight ohm ten to twenty (10-20)watt resistors.
Note that the lamp cord has a ridge or ridges on one of the two wires so you can tell it from the other.
Wrap a section of the cold water pipe with a good quality electrical tape to electrically insulate it.
Wrap the lamp cord around the cold water pipe in a neat side-by-side coil(over the electrical tape) and secure by wrapping with more electrical tape.
In theory, the more wraps the better.
Split one end of the lamp cord, strip and solder each wire to one end of a resistor.
Solder another short piece of wire to the other end of each resistor and insulate all connections.
The resistors are simply to protect the stereo from driving a short circuit.
Connect one of the wires with the resistor to left positive (+). Connect the other wire with the resistor to Right positive (+).
Connect the other end of the lamp cord wires to their respective negative (-) connections (remember the ridges).
Tune the stereo to an appropriate station broadcasting some full range dynamic music.
Bring up the volume but make sure the resistors and the coils are not getting warm. If they are warming up, back the volume off a bit.
You have now constructed an experimental solenoid style dual channel random magnetic field generator.
*Disclaimer:
Construct this experimental design at your own risk.
If you are not familiar with standard electrical safety practices, do not attempt to construct or test this experimental design.
No claim is made as to whether this arrangement will have any effect.
Do not expose any part to water or the elements.
Construction of this design is for experimental purposes only and as such should not be left to operate without proper supervision.
This design is theoretical and untested.
You assume all risks if you construct and or apply this experimental design.
By the way, did I mention that this was an experimental design?
X
I guess you are using the audio out to power your coil as you do not make this clear. You also specify ‘FM stereo’, Is this to cater for the vented system that requires two of these to protect it or could you modify it to protect your elderly neighbours system too?
I won’t mention the poor efficiency that these units with audio amplifiers typically return.
The theory is as sound as my ‘Magenta kit’
Unfortunately, this magenta kit draws less than 2watts with 80% of the output going to the coil. Yes, you could find a portable fm radio which draws this little power, but I bet it’ll only manage 20% of it’s power into the coil.
Especially with those resistors in place.
Oh yes, those resistors, bad workaround for poor electrical loading, most of your power will be lost in those resistors.
What next?
Bach or Blur?
What music will keep you pipes clear?
Oh dear, my Ideal Isar combi boiler died a horrible death 2 weeks ago. People I have talked to say this is a ‘bad’ boiler.
Anyway, I now have a ‘Baxi’ combi boiler and have fitted a Hydroflow H38 unit.
I still have the kit from magenta but have not had a chance to build and fit it.
I noticed a ‘CombiGuard’ under my counter. Do these really work? Obviously, mine is over two years old now and out of date.
What is it new age boilers. I’ve never had any ‘real’ problem with a boiler until now. I’ve lived in the same area since I was born, yeh! A whole 44 years ago.
Maybe it’s a flaw in ‘combi boiler’ design. If so, I’d rather go back to a traditional boiler and pay the extra in gas.
Just a little question on my last post.
Why are there still so many working 20 year old boilers and yet new boilers struggle to last 5 years plus without coaxing and rebuilds?
Newbie here.
Sorry to read about your boiler situation…11 yrs ago I bought a house with a combi – I hate combis. Replaced 7 yrs ago with a Vaillant system boiler & a Megaflo, runs warm water underfloor heating throughout house. Superb. Propah showers, too.
There’s a secondary circuit for the bathroom – comprising a hot water loop in copper, bronze pump, expansion vessel, check valve and swept tee back to the Megaflow – which supplyies heat for the towel rails in the bathroom and also gives almost instantaneous hot water at the taps. After 7 years there are significant deposits inside the (ally) towel rails, the trvs, and pipework.
Am interested in your progress with Magenta descaler – I was going to shell out on Scale Manager II from Waltham, but have an old soldering iron somewhare so might give the low-cost version a try.
Andrew,
*Stereo,Monaural,Music,Noise,Pulses,etc.
What is the difference?
Efficient or inefficient by design…at this point, does it matter?
The real question is does it work?
If the efficiency with which the unit transfers energy is of concern, there are transformers available for matching an output from an amplifier to a near zero impedance load (AKA a dead short)…but why bother at this point?
As best as I can tell, your commentary on the “design” is both valid and validating…assuming the emphasis is on surrounding a water carrying pipe with a modulated electromagnetic field.
Whether this is done efficiently or inefficiently from a power consumption point of view would be the concern of a final design implimenter…not an experimenter seeking proof of performance.
When I specified the procurement of a low power FM Stereo, what I really meant to say was to go and find that piece of junk the kids found inadequate (as a stereo) and let it entertain the pipes for a while.
If you dont mind the noise, you dont even have to buy the resistors…just {series} connect the speakers in place of them to protect the final amplifiers.
If the noise level becomes irritating, back the volume off a bit.
You have now constructed a mildly entertaining or potentially annoying experimental solenoid style dual channel random magnetic field generator with inherent inefficiencies.
*Disclaimer:
Construct this experimental design at your own risk.
If you are not familiar with standard electrical safety practices, do not attempt to construct or test this experimental design.
No claim is made as to whether this arrangement will have any effect.
Do not expose any part to water or the elements.
Construction of this design is for experimental purposes only and as such should not be left to operate without proper supervision.
This design is theoretical and untested.
You assume all risks if you construct and or apply this experimental design.
Although and while presenting a potential modification of a previously disclosed experimental design, the fact that this is an untested,untried,unproven basis for potential experimentation with an experimental design remains unaltered.
You accept all risks including but not limited to irritating your spouse.
By the way, did I mention that this was an experimental design?
X
Rich,
how are those test units sent to you by the proud purveyors of these fine products performing?
X
No test units have been forthcoming.
Ok, admittedly, the design based on using the kid’s junk stereo is an energy waster and does not employ radio frequencies in the process either.
This has forced me back into the laboratory…the one in my mind with lightning bolts arcing across the glass roof.
Here is the new design that uses no power from the mains and surrounds the pipes in a broad spectrum of electromagnetic enchantment.
*You would need two hose clamps,some small gauge wire,two insulated crimp connectors and electrical tape if you decided to experiment with this unproven, untested and most certainly; theroetical design.
That old TV Antenna on the roof that you abandoned when you went with cable or satellite is still busy recieving all kinds of signals (and noise) from terrestrial and extraterestrial sources.
Re-route the old antenna cable to an appropriate cold water pipe location.
Identify the section you want to perform testing on and mark both ends and the exact center.
Clean up the copper pipe at each extreme using some emery cloth.
Install a hose clamp over each of the now shiny copper areas.
Strip the end of the wire, and fasten it to the pipe using the clamp. Now,wind a coil aroung the pipe until the center mark is met, tape to prevent unraveling and cut the wire a few inches from the pipe.
Now, starting at the center mark, begin a new coil but be sure to leave a few inches of free wire to match the end of the coil you just finished.
This coil should be wound with the same rotational direction as the first coil.
Upon reaching the other extreme, strip the wire and fasten it to the pipe using the second clamp.
Back to the middle:
Cut the two wires to the same length and strip about 1/2 inch of insulation off each wire.
Now strip about 1 inch of the outer insulation off of the coaxial cable from the antenna (or aerial if you prefer)being careful not to damage the shield drain wires beneath.
Carefully “de-braid” the shield back to the striped jacket and twist them into a neat bundle.
The center of the cable should now be exposed.
Strip about 1/2 inch of the foam (dialectric material) off of the center conductor.
Now, twist the center conductor together with one of the wires from the center of the coil and install an insulated crimp.
Repeat the process crimping the de-braided shield to the other wire in the center of the coil.
Insulate any remaining bare conductors.
In theory, the two coils are now shunting all kinds of radio frequency energy to a cold-water-ground and in the process of doing so, producing coincidenally aligned magnetic flux lines within the coils at no cost to the power mains.
*Disclaimer:
This untested design is nothing more than the mental ramblings of a man with visions (cartoons) of a mad scientist type laboratory in his mind.
You have not been instructed in any manner to construct this device or arrangement of left overs from yesterday’s technologies.
The overall intent was to describe a theoretical design with no guarantee of performance…which was never specified to begin with.
There are safety and electrical (including bit not limited to: electrostatic, electromechanical and mechanical) issues involved when working with antennas, aerials or any structures suspended above ground…dont be foolish!
Do not apply any of these ideas without personally accepting all risks involved.
Hope I raised your eyebrow in thought and at least made you consider a small grin!
X
Stone the crows! What a lot of words to answer a simple question. Take it from me that electronic scale inhibitors DO work if sensibly installed. I’ve had two on my system for 15+ years; one on the rising main and the other on the gravity supply from the roof tank. The Water King salesman actually said it would NOT de-scale my kettle but I assure you it did and continues to keep the kettle clean.
I don’t know about the ScaleWatcher but the wires-round-the-pipes devices are a sound investment.
“Stone the Crows”… that makes perfect sense!
I am obviously not from the part of the world that uses such a metaphor but I do understand what you are saying.
In all fairness however, there are crows on both sides of the fence.
For all your “Crowing”, there is plenty of crowing from the other side that says you could be “full of crow”.
As a participant in this forum, I didnt see much positive reinforcement for the subject happening…so I crowed.
Your crow counts as one positive vote in my barnyard atlas.
My crowing trends towards disbelief but I have attempted to stay neutral while challenging (and taunting)other crows to produce credible substantiation.
You might note that those who should be crowing either become quiet or crow in a foolish manner when pressed for substantiation.
“Stone the crows” sounds like the words of a Monarch.
Why not just let them all eat cake?
X
Are there no takers?
For all the claims presented, is there not even a single “manufacturer” that is up to the open-forum challenge that the operator of this site has presented?
If you have even the slightest belief in your “products”, do you not realize that your silence is saying far more than your carefully composed words ever could?
X
x, And yet they continue to be sold in their thousands! The magnetic and electronic ones out-sell our LimeStop. That may be because the LimeStop has to be ‘plumbed-in’ and because the Siliphos degrades. However, at least the LimeStop comes with a guarantee that it works! It, of course, annoys us that consumers will happily buy a product that doesn’t come with ANY such guarantee. The only sense of joy we get is when people come back to us some years later when the electronic one they fitted hasn’t worked.
It would be nice if people stated whereabouts they are when they write in. I would especially like to know where in the UK Ian Wheeler lives and what type of hot water system he has. I would think from his comments that he has an ‘indirect’ cylinder that supplies his hot water. So without him actually removing the top connection and peering inside with a torch, he wouldn’t know if his device is working or not. Even then, I’ve seen for myself almost clear hot water cylinders right in the middle of a hard water area with no limescale-reducing device fitted!
Barry,
I think it would be a good move on your part to clearly define exactly what your product is intended to do…and what it cannot do. To a geat extent, people are here looking for ways to prevent water spots and scale from forming…post evaporation.
You have made it clear that your product does not offer this benefit…however, you do seem to offer a product that may have positive effects when applied as a scale preventative for the inside of the pipes and heat-exchange equipment.
To put it another way, while your product will do nothing to prevent water-spots or scale accumulation in the tea kettle, it could indeed extend the life of the systems that deliver and or heat the water…before air becomes part of the equation.
The guarantee you cite is yet another issue that needs a reality check.
Putting the exhaustible corflakes box example aside,the fact is that a performance guarantee cannot truly extend beyond the (functional) lifecycle of the product…which could be difficult to define depending on the quantity of water passing through a given unit…not to mention the prevaling condition of the pipes/systems to which it is to be applied.
A fresh installation on a clean pipe/heat-exchanger network is very different than an installation on an already (or nearly) problematic system…is it not?
It appears that you could be offering a proven technologhy in a bullet proof package…but you could well be misrepresenting it, its function and its limitations…directly or indirectly, intentionally or unintentionally.
Please show respect for the varying degrees of intelligence and intellect that represent your potential buyers.
There is an old saying that goes as follows:
“If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!”
If you are indeed selling quality, go for the brillance and be patient.
Misrepresenting your offerings directly or indirectly could be a costly mistake in the long run.
Enough said…
X
In a “nutshell”, it appears that no credible evidence is available for presentation to support the claims that descaling mechanisms based on electronic gizmos is a viable technology…allthough it appears to be a money maker.
That being said, it appears to boil down to testimonials alone…which does no say much for the industry.
Worse yet, many of the testimonials appear to be directly or indirectly tainted by some affiliation to the manufacturer(s).
As such, I draw nearer to the conclusion that the gizmos do nothing …or next to nothing.
The far and few between positive testimonials are almost always vague with only an occasional “full on” positive vote.
It would be wonderful if such devices actually did more than drain the bank account… but nobody has presented much of anything to prove this.
Is this all you have?
X
What is the official comment from British Gas on this technology?
Is BG willing to take a stand on this?
Is BG willing to provide extended warranties based on application of this technology?
It would seem that they have already charged for it…eh?
What should they offer customers that have applied the products they recommended and sold?
An extra year?
An extra five years?
A lifetime warranty?
A refund?
A refund with interest?
Please describe the sale pitch used.
Please describe the accompanying performance enhancements described during the sales pitch.
Please describe the written guarantees of performance that were offered as result of application of these products.
Please tell us what you paid for these enhancements.
If my local utility was to take an affirmative stand and produce credible substantiation concerning actual performance, I would be impressed!
What exactly is BG?
Is BG a public utility or a private company?
X
How do these more expensive descalers compare against the £6.99 Maplin “Decalcifier” version ?
You would need a 6-15V DC power supply to use as there isn’t one supplied but pretty much any universal model would work.
Thanks
Gavin
Answer for Gavin…
they are more expensive.
X
Gavin,
sorry about the smart-ass remark but the fact is that from the top dollar unit to the bottom dollar unit to my (hopefully) amusing/humorous designs, nobody has presented proof that the technology has factual basis.
I am done with heresay and testimonials… I want to see the facts and apparently, no facts are available.
Far too many times, we have been directed to a load of inconclusive misleading crapola that is way too easy to see through. The “It might work in this situation but not in that situation” approach is nothing more than salesmanship at its worst (best).
The unit to which you refer is based on a 2KHz field being generated.
Other designs claim that everything from square waves (Direct current pulses) to exotic waveforms do the trick.
My laughable designs based on audio output from a junky stereo have the potential of generating 20-20000 Hz random magnetic fields.
The design based on using the old/abandoned TV antenna could potentially communicate directly with the water gods…just another joke.
You may note that most of those who supported electronic water conditioning either as a manufacturer or as a friend or relative of somebody in support of this pseudo science have gone mostly silent.
My taunting has both worked and failed… I expected more of a fight.
Admittedly, I am disappointed.
X
Hi, no worries – I remain deeply sceptical about these devices as well but I figure that if you are going to try one, throwing away £7 is a lot less painful than £50++
I have attached one to the inlet pipe of my hot water cylinder and I guess given time, I will see if it does make any difference or not.
Thanks
Gavin
Agreed… less money down the drain is the way to go since it all appears to be experimental anyway.
X
A report ( 0-87164 ) relating to the effects of magnetic water treatment was prepared by the Norwegian Institute for Water Research .The report concluded that magnetism had considerable effect upon the reduction of precipitation of limescale
Steve Hopper:
Here is what comes up when I search the Norwegian Institute for Water Research site:
Searchresults
0 results when searching for “0-87164″
Perhaps you could provide a direct link so I can review it and attempt to “shoot it full of holes” pertaining to it’s application on metallic pipes, etc.
Conversely, if this report does exist and is not easily stepped on and “smooshed like another bug”, I will be impressed.
Suggest you go back, review it yourself and decide whether you want to present it.
Take your time…
X
On the other hand, let’s not confuse the issue with pertinent facts.
X
Re. the Maplin version — most units seem to have a coil around the pipe, and pass a current of some sort through the coil to create whatever effect it is. The Maplin (Kemo Electronic) unit has two coils but only one end of each is connected (see http://www.kemo-electronic.de/datasheets/m101a.pdf) so, probably not the same effect. If any.
Unterminated coil ends:
Without even hinting at the possibility that I might think that the unit might actually have an effect on the water contained in the pipes; The fact that a coil dosent appear to be connected to anything does not mean that it cannot radiate a magnetic field.
However, the ability to radiate much of anything is dependant on the frequency applied. At 2KHz, the chances that the coils radiate much of anything arent too good. At much higher frequencies, the coils could radiate more energy because they will start to self load due to some basic electronic laws. Unfortunately, the only magnetic field that stands a chance of penetrating metallic tubing is a static one…such as what you get from a permanent magnet…permanently affixed and not moving relative to the metallic pipe.
A permanent magnet applied in a fixed position is a zero (0)Hz magnetic field generator.
This field will penetrate (non-magnetic) metallic pipe and will have an effect on the water contained within it…however, nobody has presented any proof that this does any useful work as pertains to preventing scale formation once the water meets air and/or heat.
If I shipped you a load of garbage, instructed you to sort it into valuable recyclables, semi-precious metals, animal and vegetable protiens, useful fibrous compounds,waste, etc. and after doing so, you threw it all into a bag and sent it back… I now have a bag of garbage.
Apply this analogy to a water pipe or better yet, a few inches of water pipe… where does the garbage go?
What is being sold here…modified garbage?
x
2010…just a few days away.
2010… and crapola is perhaps a bigger commodity than ever before.
2010… open your eyes, open your ears…but first, turn on your brain.
Dont believe everything you cannot prove…just because you cannot prove it.
There are only a few things that deserve that kind of faith.
x
Hi All,
Trawled through much from the comments above, cornflakes and fruitcake etc!
If I use a salt watersoftner how many years do I have before my tap insides go brittle. We have a house whih is about to be gutted which has currently a salt watersoftner and the tap cores are crumbling. SO starting afresh in the summer WHAT is the best softner to go with.
Salt
Electro
Magnetic
OR?
Please suggest.
Jan
Jan,
If you are truly gutting the house, rerun the pipes in a radial fashion as opposed to a drop-tap arrangement.
This will allow you to decide what kind of water to send down each.
Salt water based softening is best for the dishwasher, washing clothes and perhaps even washing automobiles…but not so good for consumption or cooking.
Filtered water is best for consumption/cooking.
Consumption includes absorption (bathing).
Did I mention the “Gizmos”?
Go with what has been proven to work…at least until somebody presents something that is not only believeable but has some proof behind it.
X
2010…let’s calcify!
X
Andrea,
Que paso?
Rich,
this [article] is pretty quiet these days.
I realize that my comments…both serious and comical have contributed (but not solely) to this situation.
At the core level, all I wanted was to have at least one person produce something akin to credibility concerning electronic water conditioning…but that never seemed to happen…unless something got by me.
I fear that I have helped to beat the fun out of a site that I really found entertaining…or at least a great waste of otherwise idle time.
At this point, I would have to surmise or at least guess that anybody who buys one of the devices based on pure electronics as the “prime mover” is simply somebody that needs to spend money.
Further, it would appear (based on the aforementioned) that anybody that buys a filtration system with one of these electronic enhancements will be buying a filtration system…with “bling”.
As always, I will disclaim any knowledge that these devices are raw snake oil because I really dont have proof either way and I wouldnt want to destroy the income of potentially honest but just as potentially gullible salespersons who are just trying to make a living.
Obviously, it would be irresponsible on my part to say that I think that it is all sensationalism on the part of a bunch of thieves and aimed at a bunch of exceedingly stupid or uninformed people…so I won’t.
Since I have no proof that the technology does not work and even less to say that it does, I am left with no alternative except to say that there is insufficient data to exclusively conclude anything.
I can say this much; there have been a fair number of attempts to send many a reader down ambiguous and inconclusive “trails of evidence” which led to even more questions and inconclusiveness.
So while I cannot state factually that these device do little to nothing on a factual basis, I can state without doubt that I have not been provided with enough proof to say that the referenced devices have any definable effect beyond using a bit of electricity…and perhaps warming the pipes a bit.
I was really hoping for more…I didn’t come here for a bunch of silly bantering and I doubt that that was your intent in setting up this site….but it has been entertaining!
x
I have posted here before as we make and sell the Little Plumber electronic water conditioner. Whether they work or not is a bit of a silly question since if they didn’t most of us who make them would be out of business. All I will say is that if you buy one make really sure you get a good long Guarantee like if it doesn’t work send it back for a full refund.
Hi Gavin, should we infer that you’ve not made the timelapse video (as previously suggested) that would inexpensively show your product actually doing something other than wasting electricity? The situation is still the same for everyone here. If we were to buy and fit one of your units, it would be a royal pain in the ass to remove it if or when it didn’t work. So your offer of a full refund is still moot. I’d like it if your units worked & I might invest in one, but I want to know beforehand. It’s a really simple concept, and it should be easy to grasp: I don’t want a money-back guarantee, I want proof. Calling the original question “silly” after you’ve failed to prove anything only serves to make your argument look flawed.
Strangely enough our distributor in Cyprus (who incidentally is extremely enthused with the product) has made a video which is now on our site http://www.littleplumber.com for you to see. You can speed it up or slow it down as you please.
Remember also to look at the customers who really like the product. I have a letter only today from De Vere Hotels locally in Abingdon extolling the virtues of my products. Would you like a copy…NO…I’ll post it here. Tomorrow.
One last thing. I am 70 this year so hope to meet my maker before you do…if there is one of course…but then you’d need proof wouldn’t you?
I can see a computer generated installation video linked from that page, but no timelapse – I got excited then. Oh well. I also checked in the “what our customers say” page and found no Cyprus references, so I look forward to the link tomorrow. Also, please avoid offtopic references, you’re in danger of proving Godwin’s Law.
Rich. Yes sorry about that just get a little frustrated by the fact that after having sold thousands of these units over 10 years we still get the “do they work” brigade asking for proof which frankly is available but which most people find too difficult to comprehend. The guy in Cyprus will have his site up and running next week it is http://www.the-irisell.com and he is also opening a shop selling our products. You can see his ‘phone number so call him.
[Edit: Removed private email from third party that has not been cleared for publication]
Mmmmmm !!! looks like you removed the letters and e-mails from third parties to support your argument. Why did you do that when they have been cleared? Te De Vere Venues are thrilled. Is this a blog where you add or remove to make your point and thereby ignore the facts or at least not show them. Worse than Godwin more like Stalin!
How sad when you choose to withold my blogs just because you might be proved wrong. As I said worse than Godwin more like Stalin. I would have thought you could have done better than supress facts but I suppose it’s they way you guys do things.
Also I have a confirming e-mail from De Vere Venues allowing their letter to be used in any way.
Hi Gavin,
If someone has sent you an email, then it is a private communication; so they’d have a right to be surprised or unhappy if that message turned up on my website. I’m just being sensible in not publishing everything that arrives. I can do this because it is my website. If I don’t publish something you submit, it is called editorial control, not censorship. You can publish whatever you like on your site, and if I stopped you doing that, then it would be censorship. Yet you’ve compared me to Stalin for quite sensibly protecting the privacy of someone who sent you an email.
Additionally you have stated that I chose to “ignore the facts or at least not show them” and that I “might be proved wrong”. Firstly, to be proved wrong, I’d have to take a stand and say that these products do, or do not work. I’m not taking that position because I have a third option, I can say, I don’t know yet, there is no experimental evidence that proves or disproves that they work – which is why I asked the original question, and hopefully why you’re here.
You also used the “F” word – “Facts”. I’m not aware that I’ve suppressed any facts. To be succinct: testimonials are not facts, at best they are unreliable opinion. Customer testimonials may prove to you that your products work, but to a third party, they could be interpreted all kinds of ways, and with quite opposite meanings to the one’s you’re inferring. Third parties might doubt the provenance, believing them to be fictional, or obtained through some coercion, or some other non-obvious driver, for example, the customer might have spent so much money on the products that if they had not worked the customer’s job would be on the line, so they are only too happy to appear to be the investor in a successful product. There are so many ways that testimonials can be misinterpreted that they’re really not much use.
Previously you note quite rightly that the chemical and electromagnetic science behind these devices is beyond most people, however, that should not be a barrier to being able to design an experiment that shows that they work. The time-lapse video idea is an example of such an experiment. If you can do that then quite unconnected from proving anyone else wrong, you’ll have proved yourself right. Either that or point me to the peer reviewed journal article where the science bit is properly analysed.
When I write in here sometimes it appears
OK here’s the link then:
http://www.littleplumber.com/customertestimonials.html
It’s at the bottom of the letters dated 22nd Jan 2010
Cheers
PS: Rich why don’t you try one?
When we originally undertook tests at a local test centre 14 years ago we published our results as others have which conclusively proved that good electronic conditioners do remove and prevent limescale. What do you think our customers said? “Well they might work in the laboratory but how will they work for us?” So you see you cannot win and that’s why I rely so much more on testimonials from reliable customers such as De Vere Venues who are using our unit with great success. They really are not interested in the science, all they and in fact anybody else wants is a cure for their problem. The De Vere testimonial is very relevant since it cured a problem in a steam generator for a steam room and this situation is far more aggressive than you would find in a normal house.
I find it hard to believe that with permission from De Vere (which I enclose herewith) you would not put their letter on your site. But then I suppose it is YOUR site and you can allow or disallow what you like. Sadly the amount of CO2 which is pumped into the atmosphere by inefficient scaled-up boilers could be greatly reduced by installing a Little Plumber, but where people continually behave like ostriches and even refuse to believe that global warming is a reality it becomes a difficult task to reverse the problem.
The best person in the field of electro-magnetic descaling is Professor Simon Judd at Cranfield University who has worked with Professor Simon Parson and they have published an article on how the physics works. I called them today but both on answerphone to try and get a copy of their experiments. You could try if you are really interested. http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sas/aboutus/staff/judds.jsp
Hi
I replied but cannot see my reply. Have you “moderated” it?
Cheers
Gavin
No.
where’s my last blog gone I wonder???
Yeah, me too, what did it say?
Yeah there it is
Hello Gavin (and all manufacturers of electronic limescale inhibitors),
When I asked the question initially I was expecting to receive third party testimonials, or perhaps links to evidence that showed whether electronic limescale inhibitors worked, or not. Neither really materialised.
Hopefully I also made it quite clear why the money-back guarantees offered by companies like yours are pretty useless to the common consumer – because one has to pay to fit and remove the device (often requiring the fitting additional certified electrical gubbins), all of which incur expense. The logical time to fit such a device is during a kitchen refit, and because the pipes are not often on show in homes, the device will end up concealed behind fitted units much of the time, so removing it for a money-back guarantee is not an option.
I’ve keep maintaining this thread because I still hope for more than just second-hand testimonials. Given the length of the thread, and the number of readers, many other people are hoping for the same.
Given that you’re a manufacturer of these devices, not just a third party, you’re in a position to provide hard evidence that shows clearly to the layman that they do work, but have not yet done so. I don’t run this site to advertise your products, but I’m more than happy to entertain discussion about them if you’re going to come up with that evidence.
If you do not provide evidence, it will look like you cannot.
I still hope you can.
last post was letter from De Vere
Ahhhh right. The glowing testimonial. As I suggested, put it on your website and link to it from here. If you ever do come up with any evidence, put that on your website too, and I’ll happily link to that as well.
Rich,
perhaps you have asked for the wrong thing…
Since nobody appears to be able to put forth proof positive that these devices work excepting hand picked testimonials; maybe you should be asking if these devices don’t work.
Certainly, no manufacturer is going to post a letter from a completely dissatisfied customer or provide links to water quality studies that indicate that the technology has little to no positive effect…but I would bet that there are plenty of dissatisfied customers and a fair collection of negative or inconclusive tests.
The fact is that most if not all of the “evidence” we have been directed to has had sufficient weak spots to cause anybody with anything resembling intelligence (and the patience to COMPLETELY read it) to discard it.
On the other hand, if you ask readers to post concerning their negative experiences with these devices, you could be opening Pandora’s box and may find your site overwhelmed.
Perhaps you could install a “Take the Survey” button and a “View the Results” button.
The only problem would be sorting out which surveys are real and which are ballot box stuffing attempts…whether positive or negative.
X
still not there
What is “still not there”? Still not where? Please use sentences, they help us understand you.
Can I put the letter from De Vere on now. They are really so pleased and it has saved them a fortune???
Upload it to your site and post a link to the page here.
where’s my last blog gone?
Hi Gavin,
are you referring to your “customer testimonial”? I’ve suggested several times that you put it on your website, and then we can link to it from here.
Rich
Right
I am going to put a blog on my site and ask that if ANYONE knows ANYBODY who has had a Little Plumber in the last 10 years and is unhappy with it then they are to post tyhis fact on your site.
Gavin
Now that’s a good really good idea.
Here is a thought… many references have been made to professors and scientists as if they had something to contribute to the subject at hand.
Numerous articles and reports have also been cited.
There is an old saying that sounds ridiculous and seems to make no sense but I will use it anyway and chances are good that all will understand…
Let’s hear it from the horse’s mouth!
If you could convince even one of these referenced experts to post a direct comment to this site which can provide something akin to credibility with accompanying credentials in an application specific manner, it would make a huge difference.
By “application specific”, I mean as his/her comments relate to the core concept behind the collective posts predating this comment…any and all.
Is that too much to ask?
X
Isn’t what is needed a full independent test report that has 2 completely identical systems bar the scale inhibitor device. Run it for a time and see how scaling is on the element at the end of the test period.
Indeed, or even better a timelapse video of said test unit. The images in your Aquabion Test 1 document are compelling, and would be even better as an HD video.
Yes, I have thought about that, but this is what independent labs are for, so we can trust them. Would a time-lapse video be trust worthy?
With the aquabion you can prove it works for yourself by just using a brush on the soft lime-scale that develops over time on your kettle element. It cleans off easily leaving a shiny surface.
I could post a vid of that if you think that will prove it works, and I can find a decent glass kettle.
Hi
Here’s the link…finally
http://www.littleplumber.com/customertestimonials.html
The De Vere letter is at the bottom of the list