Do electronic limescale inhibitors work?
I’ve been intermittently toying with the idea of fitting an Anti-Limescale device to the water supply in our home.
Today, with the delivery of a new phone book, I got a flyer describing a product called ScaleWatcher which reminded me of my occasional curiosity with the subject. It’s a nice convincing-looking flyer, with a money back guarantee, so I’m tempted to give it a go.
We have a nice glass sided kettle so it’ll be really obvious if it actually works.
I may be forced to try a little experiment and take daily pictures of my kettle, so please spare me from the madness and give me some definite answers:
- Has anyone I know actually used a household electric water softener?
- Was the experience worthwhile?
- Are they any better than the magnetic or salt based ones?
360 Comments
Rich,
Is there more than one “Gavin” posting to this site?
For at least two posts, there is a Gavin the interested/sceptical and economical consumer and then, there is Gavin (B) the manufacturer.
This is intended as a completely non accusative inquiry…just curious!
Gavin(or Gavins)…no offense intended!
X
Yes, The De Vere letter is at the bottom of the list.
Not exactly a letter from a consumer without profit motivated interests…or did I miss something?
X
Here we are almost 5 years later on when the leading question was posted: Do electronic lime-scale inhibitors work? Confusion seems to be perpetual and obviously off-putting for the many would-be purchasers. My advice, for what it is worth, is to be very cautious of electronic devices and to those that have purchased them in the past to be vigilant of what may be taking place.
The simple answer is yes, on occasions, they do appear to work to clean up some sections of pipework and some genuine testimonials are no doubt gained but at what cost. I tend to think along the lines that you do not get something for nothing from any technology…….something must give.
In recent times numerous manufacturers have strayed from the basic well established sacrificial anode technology (the giving aspect) in pursuit of modern trends towards anything electronic, especially as this provides an opportunity for salesmen to tell a compelling “new-science” story to the gullible and with a bit of sales luck they manage to sell not one device but maybe three to a household; one on the mains intake, one just before the water heater and one on the outlet from a break-storage tank.
The point that I am getting to is the role that corrosion plays in precipitating calcium carbonate and that corrosion exists in practically all water systems to some degree or other and this from day one. It’s this hidden fact that enables electronic devices to have any form of success at limiting or reducing the formation of hard lime-scale deposits.
I give credit to at least one of the manufacturers as they openly state that their product requires a source of metallic ions to function but from where…….? Before and after photographs seem to “advertise” the fact that during the elimination of lime-scale the pipes become progressively more vulnerable to being leached into the flow of water, with countless micro galvanic cells eating into the pipe walls but this can only good for the function of electronic devices.
The only way to be assured that protection and energy savings are optimised is to make the inner surfaces of the pipes etc., passive with an anode technology, preferably using zinc in a system that is maintained below 60ºC in order to avoid reversion and the flow to be no more than 2 mps., to limit erosion. This I believe to be the best solution, especially when pipes are hidden behind walls and under floors and this applies to systems that are fed with “soft” water.
Why consider electronic devices with their 100+ days of money-back guarantees when the latest anode technology, currently in its final stage of development, has the solution to the past weakness of well established, scientifically acknowledged technologies. The new product is designed to operate 100% of the time, without the need for adjustments, without re-programming, without periodic cleaning the anode with chemicals, without an electrical supply or flashing lights, without concern for variable flow-rates, without concern for how “hard or soft” the water and all this until the anode is finally depleted and ready for its 5 minutes replacement. Costs are also brought down to Earth.
I’m sorry guys but this is where I must declare an obvious vested interest in the product.
Sadly it is quite obvious that Andrea doesn’t have much of a clue as to how conditioners work. Can you explain the “corrosion” bit ANDREA?
An interesting point Gavin, and this is why I’ve moved from asking generally “do these things work” to asking for some more scientific evidence (and why it’s continually disappointing that vendors such as yourself have repeatedly failed to provide it).
Rich,
there is clear documented proof that sugar pills can help to aleviate the painful symptoms of arthritis…not to mention many other illnesses, diseases and discomforts.
If a customer buys an electronic gizmo, installs it and is so inspired to apply a bit of extra effort…while trying to test its effectiveness, who are we to step on their sugar pills?
Perhaps these devices are purely motivational…?
All belief systems require varying degrees of personal perserverance… and few have much substantiation.
There is a big difference between believing in an accepting manner and believing in a working manner.
Without going too far into beliefs and belief systems or in other words going on a tangent, I THINK that there is a certain degree of need to believe in these devices without proof but not without extra effort.
This is obviously not the religion of water treatment and I would encourage those concerned to THINK, examine the real evidence that is NOT BEING PRESENTED and evaluate just how much extra personal effort they have expended towards believing that these thingamabobs work.
Anybody willing to put the effort into coming to an understanding with what has been presented so far shouldnt even be questioning whether this is a workable solution…or not.
Where are the facts?
This is a challenge that has been ignored from every possible angle.
Where are the facts?
X
It’s quite easy to prove whether or not an electronic descaler works or doesn’t… WATCH FOR THE SCALE TO BUILD UP!
I have a swamp cooler and scale build up on our pad (we have one of those really awesome single pad evap coolers from Phoenix Mfg.) is a real hassle.
Previously, the scale buildup was greyish and horrible. Clogged up the pad and made it weigh a ton! We were using something called a “Haku Water Conditioner”, hooked up to our water inlet line and I don’t think it did a thing.
Recently, we’ve purchased a “Scale Eliminator” cartridge (like for a refrigerator ice maker) and the scale buildup is much less and whitish in color, so I think it must be working… probably seriously overloaded, handling a near constant flow of water to the cooler, but… I can tell something is different.
If a passive (magnetic) or active (electronic) “descaler” is effective, you will notice far less mineral deposits on your cooler pads over the course of a season or two of use, as I have with the “Scale Eliminator” cartridge (different device, but same effect desired).
I think a single pad swamp cooler is the best/fastest way to see effective results, because if the minerals don’t stick to the pad, your pad will look wet, but almost new, year after year, til the pad just dies from normal age, not scale buildup!
Now, I think one way these Descaler sellers could convince me to purchase their product is to send one to me at a 50-75% discount, on the condition that I document the results of it’s use and, upon seeing the desaired result within a season or two of use, pay the remainder of the full price.
Afterall, if you KNOW your product will work, why would you be worried to wait a little while for the customer to see the result you KNOW they will see?
People who trust their products and KNOW their products are as good as they advertise, are willing to put their money where their mouth is.
You don’t need to “believe” in the unseen (sugar pill effect), if visible proof is what the device is supposed to show you. Just look for the result the product is supposed to offer. If you DON’T see scale buildup, great. If you do… then you know the product is a sham.
I will be more than glad to test one of these devices, if someone will buy one for me (I don’t have $500-$1,000 or more to spend on such a device). I will take pictures as often as requested, with a time/date stamp in the picture.
If the product works, I will PROVE it and put all doubt aside. If it doesn’t… I will still PROVE it and put all doubt aside.
Andrea,
First, I will give you some credit for the home-work you have done… but I must ask if your intent is to offer a prophylactic for pipe corrosion or lime scale?
These two subjects are undoubtedly related but concern two entirely different aspects of water delivery systems.
It would appear to me that you and at least one other contributor to this site may be in direct competition on the corrosion front but if I am not mistaken, the subject that ignited this site was limescale prevention.
To put it another way, it would appear that at least two contributors to this site are offering ways to help insure that water…of whatever quality could potentially emerge from pipes whose lives (the pipes) could theoretically be extended.
This does not appear to say anything for the quality of the water emerging from these pipes…and it does concern me that whatever has been added to protect metal..in whatever form may not be especially healthy for the biological units that said water is supposed to benefit.
Two completely different subjects are now being discussed on this site and in fact, they (the two) have had a child.
That child is human health.
All aspects must be considered in light of the fact that at least some of this water will be consumed.
Everlasting pipes and spot free bathroom fixtures mean nothing if nobody is left to call it good…agreed?
Sacrificial anode… or whatever technology implies that something is being allowed or caused to (electrochemically) rot into the water for the purpose of protecting non-living mechanisms but says nothing for those who may actually consume the water.
Life in itself is based on a delicate balance of chemicals and electrochemistry and at the core of this is water…at least here on earth.
Clean pipes and shiny shower handles mean nothing if nobody is around to admire them.
This is not a personal attack…but it may well be a general attack.
Man has existed for quite some time consuming and bathing in the stuff that now appears to be an irritant.
Lime or mineral scale saved the Romans from death from their lead-pipe technology (look it up!).
To all concerned and to all who appear to show little to no concern I say this: Profiting Blindly on the alteration of the water molecule and its naturally occouring mineral/chemical partners with anything less than a complete understanding of the long term biological effects is nothing short of a crime.
And many do not care.
X
Rich
Sorry I haven’t been blogging recently….too busy selling Little Plumbers. Yes it seems there is another Gavin out there.
Regards
Gavin (B)
This is perhaps the bottom line…?
There are scientists…people who actually attempt to understand the world from as many aspects as it is possible for each of them to grasp that are interested in this subject (water conditioning)…in an informed manner.
They do not appear to comment on sites like this and as an analytical commentator, I must surmise that they choose not to comment because this is not only a poorly defined science but a potentially dangerous one.
Those seeking profit while ignoring the clear lack of reinforcing and or counter-benfecial evidence as relates to what they are promoting could be playing with fire for generations yet unborn.
Water is the essence of life here on mother earth and if you cannot guarantee that your product offerings represent a better biological situation than letting the pipes rot, the shower fixtures corrode and the Tea Kettle scale up, you are simply a profiteer.
Tape worms were once sold in the American West as a miracle weight-loss mechanism with the claim of “no ill effects”.
Anybody ready to swallow one of these “miracles” in today’s (better)informed society?
If you cannot offer even so much as a scientifically-backed partial substantiation for the claims you present with some slight degree of credibility…why are you wasting the world’s time?
The day of the small-print advertisement about tape-worms in a tiny wild-west newspaper are done and gone. You now speak to the world when you post claims on the WWW.
You are open to comments just like the one you are now reading…on a world-wide-basis.
Now, your potential is greater than ever if you can offer proper substantiation…and smaller than ever if you cannot (or choose not) to do so.
Where is (what is the opinion of) the SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY (which is growing exponentially) on this subject? Are there no experts willing to back or flush (yes a toilet reference) this subject?
Gavin,
I couldn’t help but notice your comment that read as follows:
Sadly it is quite obvious that Andrea doesn’t have much of a clue as to how conditioners work. Can you explain the “corrosion” bit ANDREA?
Perhaps it is time for you Gavin to step up and explain the referenced subject and better yet, how it applies to the product you promote.
I am not defending Andrea…or anybody for that matter; however, you appear to have gone on the attack so I would like to know what is in your arsenal before I can offer up any sort of respect for your comments.
Get just as technical and complex as you choose to so long as you base your comments on reality and factual information.
Conversely, you can simply tell me that I dont have a clue…or just ignore me and either way, we will all know where we stand.
X
It would appear… No, actually it is pretty clear that those offering electronic water conditioners do not have much more than unsubstantiated claims to offer up.
At this point in time, nobody has offered up anything to even suggest in a factual manner that this is no more than wishful thinking that results in profits for the undeserving.
How about presenting something more than fantasy?
All you have to do is present proof and your market is set!
Otherwise, all you are offing is “stuff to toy with” that some may temporairly believe in….perhaps even so much as to write a “testimonial”.
Unfortunately for the masses, it is extremely rare for the writer of a personal testimonial to write a second commentary that starts out with “Upon further review…”.
It is even rarer that such a second looks makes a public appearance.
As such, testimonials typically represent a first opinion that the testifier is far to embarrased to counterclaim.
If you are going to accept honestly earned cash, ofer up some proof that you honestly earn the cash you accept.
x
Lunns of Farnborougth…LP stockists for 10 years
Winchmore Hill Plumbing …LP stockists for 10 years
P.J.Drew Caversham…LP stockists for 10 years
123 Plumbing & Heating Poole…stock and fit LP’s Corgie registered 10 years
I mean really WOULD THEY really stock and sell my products if they didn’t work? Ask them. And do you know what….THEY NEVER GET ONE BACK AND HAVE REPEAT CUSTOMERS!
PS: Your spell checker isn’t working!
Cheers
Gavin
Gavin,
Let’s not create unnecessary distractions or “side routes” to send other brains meandering about.
I am not at all impressed by the fact that you have made and continue to make sales.
I am not in the least impressed that you have long term cooperatives…who may not be especially pleased that you openly named them in public forum.
The fact is that you have yet to present anything even remotely similar to proof that your devices have any effect on water or the stuff it may be carrying.
“Ha, Ha…been too busy making money to type” comments do not satisfy anybody’s curiosity as to whether you product has any actual or useful effect.
X
Health issues aside I simply cannot see how applying a low level of RF to the outside of a copper pipe can have the slightest effect on the contents of that pipe. Surely the “skin effect” simply won’t allow the energy to enter the pipe?
I do feel there is a large placebo effect going on here, if you spend enough money on a product it must do some good and if you believe strongly enough you will see the results.
If these units are generating an RF field I also wonder how much radio interference they create?
John W.
John
Why don’t you ring Travis at the Milton De Vere Hotel near Abingdon. He is the maintenance mamager there and has had an LP3 on his steam generator for over a year.
Just ask him what the results have been and how much money our unit has saved him nd how spa customers can now enjoy the steam room whereas once they could not.
Ask him if it is a “placebo” effect and you may well get an earful of richly deserved choice language.
As for radio interference, please look at the frequencies used and you will se that even the harmonics couldn’t reach frequencies used in “radios” as you quiantly call them.
NEXT?
Ooops sorry I mean “quaintly” !!!!
Don’t Know if it will help anyone but I have a ” little Plumber ” fitted to the cold water mains at my house. It has been there for 6 ish years now and I have no scale problems any more. I used to be replacing kettles every 2-3 months as I live in a very hard water area.
Ps I am the local electrician in my local area and have lost count of the amount of showers and immersion heaters I have replaced. Judge for yourself.
Yes Gavin,
If there is a profit to be made on an unsubstantiated (but reasonably unchallenged) product, there will be plenty of people available to try to exploit it for all it is worth.
Four all you could find?
X
I use a product purchased from HydroFlow Canada. It just clips onto the cold water pipe just before it enters the hot water tank. The unit works great….no more milky looking glasses and dingy looking silverware. I previously had a traditional water softener and used potassium, but the potassium was getting so expensive, not to mention having to lift those heavy bags was becoming a chore!
Go Green…..Go HydroFlow!
Hi John
Gavin here. We make and sell the Little Plumber range and have done for over 10 years.
The frequencies used do easily penetrate the copper pipes as indeed they do all pipes including plastic. Not terribly well on lead!
The reason is that the frequencies are very low, almost in the audio range and so imagine yourself inside a copper pipe and someone is “singing” outside..you would hear it.
The frequencies are again too low to affect radios.
Placebo effect? The guys who stock and use our products aforementioned are pretty hardened businessmen. I don’t think they would have stocked items for the last 10 years and have their customers come back and tell them the their water had improved because it was in their minds. Paul at 123 Plumbing and Heating buys these units every week and fits them BECAUSE people call him and ask him to BECAUSE friends of theirs have LP units and love them. No sorry, you can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but NOT all the people all the time.
If you want to call these guys up the ‘phone numbers on on our site. They will tell you that THEY DO NOT GET THEM BACK and customers love them. Call them !!!
Gavin
There is a very easy way to determine if this technology actually works, and that is to conduct a small home experiment. First, find a water pipe which is heavily scaled and scrape out as much of the scale as possible (at least one teaspoon full), and dump this scale into an ordinary drinking water glass. Fill the glass about 3/4 full with ordinary tap water and stir the contents thoroughly, then allow the sediment to sink to the bottom of the glass. Procure and place beside the drinking glass any magnetic or electronic device of your choice which purports to affect limescale buildup in any way. When you are satisfied that your device is properly positioned, stir your mixture again and note the effect of having the “device” in the presence of your scale mixture. If the scale mixture sediment does not sink to the bottom of the glass and behave exactly as if the device was not present, rush out and buy as many as you can, because you are about to get very wealthy very quickly. While you are at it, better call a few of those science television shows like “Discover” because you are about to become famous…
Yes Gavin, they would…so long as money is being made, the would and they will.
They are no different than the manufacturer who would sell a product without proof that it does anything.
It is all about dollars…not sense.
Perhaps you should raise the price… you might sell even more!
X
I would really like to thank “X” for his adult sense of reasoning on this issue. It’s really refreshing to listen to a person that seems to have his/her head screwed on correctly.
Our planet seems to be driven by so many belief systems and just take a look at it and you can see just how effective these beliefs are.
I was searching for information about tankless water heaters knowing full well what will happen to any device that boils the water I get here in California. So my search included references to hard water and that’s how I got here.
Again thanks all and if you want to believe in something try music.
Hey Rich… has anybody sent you anything to test/observe/record?
Seems to me that any manufacturer who is too busy to talk to you must be in an adequately comfortable position such as to send you one to test…does it not?
How long has it been since you offered to test whatever was sent to you?
How many units have you been sent?
Are you thinking what I am thinking?
x
In order:
John,
In effect the frequencies generated by our products anyway, the Little Plumber, are very low so can easily penetrate copper and indeed most materials including plastic.
Imagine yourself inside a copper tube and someone “taps” on the outside. You would hear it. The frequencies used are nearly in the audio range. Again the radio interference you allude to is an impossibiklity given the range of requencies used as they are just too low to be picked up by normal receivers.
As to the “placebo” effect. I really don’t think the likes of P.J.Drew of Caversham or Winchmore Hill Plumbing in London (to name but two) would continue to stock these products for 10 years if all their customers experience was a placebo effect.
Hope this helps.
Gavin
That’s the point of the placebo effect Gavin! The customer has no measured record of precisely how bad their scale problem is, so they pay money for a device that will improve it. Thus they want to believe they are seeing an improvement, so they convince themselves that they are. The flip-side is the “oh shit I’ve wasted the bosses money” effect, where the buyer fears for their career progression having been taken in by smoke and mirrors, so they keep schtum. Once you throw in the cost of taking the machine out once everything has been plumbed in, it’s obvious to all but the most stubborn of observers that these machines are low-cost enough to be tried, but if (or when) they don’t work it’s too much hassle and cost to take them back to the shop.
I’d like my concern, my doubt, to be alleviated by myriad evidence from different manufacturers of electronic limescale inhibitors, but that kind of evidence is difficult to find. Facts would make the placebo effect irrelevant, facts would alleviate doubt, facts would sell these products: why are there so few independently verified facts?
Has my last reply been vetoed?
Hi Gavin, no.
Aaahh miraculously appeared. Must have been stuck in the system.
Facts are that my stockists have been selling these products for 10 years so the placebo effect must be amazing!!
Not stuck… every comment is moderated, so if I’m not available they wait in a queue.
Oh and by the way, the guy at the De Vere Hotel in Milton, his name is Travis now tells me he hasn’t had to change his steam generation canister for over a year saving hin a fortune in time and money. It used to scale up every week. So delighted is he that he told his pal over in Chelteneham and they now have an LP3 too. But of course these are not FACTS as such are they? Or maybe they are.
…or maybe they arent…or maybe they are… or maybe they arent.
Gavin… they are not facts!
Facts imply something… and that would be that factual information is available to back up a statement.
A fact is not a fact without smaller facts that add up and make a fact.
Each of those little contributing facts must be a fact before they collectively equal a fact when tossed together.
The fact that you are making sales makes it a fact that you are a salesman.
As such, I truly believe that you may indeed be quite the salesman…assuming that your sales are as good as you have attempted to indicate by claiming to be to busy to talk about it.
Still, as I lack concrete proof, I cannot call you a thief outright…for while you offer no proof that your device does anything at all, nobody of real importance…such as a university or government agency has really offered their credentials either way.
Unchallenged, you can make any claim you wish about your product with the only (possible) threat being that of having to cease and desist…eventually.
By the way, Audio and Electromagnetic energy at Audio frequencies are related only in frequency.
Your reply to John is insulting…unless you truly believe what you state and then whell, you are indeed a fool!
Imagine if I tapped on a copper pipe with a Coconut… no Cocomagnetic energy would be transferred…or would it?
Hmm… Cocowater!
X
Gavin,
please post a link or two to the Hotel in Minton… I would like to have an opportunity to chat with Travis and his superiors.
I am certain that others would like the same opportunity as well.
X
Sorry have been on a wet break in Dorset.
Yes Travis is happy to be contacted at the De Vere Milton (not Minton) and the reception number is 0844 980 2314.
The steam generator in question is in the lesiure spa which is part of the hotel. Travis (I am sorry I don’t know his surname)will confirm all we say.
Gavin
What is a steam generation canister?
Is this another one of those elusive terms that will never actually be explained?
I have heard of heaters and I have heard of boilers… so where does a steam generation canister come into play?
How often is a steam generation canister typically replaced?
Would a “steam generation canister” benefit from a “vented tank in the loft”…or are all of these terms just more crapola?
Any time Mr. Travis Nolastname that works for the De Vere hotel that is apparently in Minton and near Abingdon wants to jump in an provide comments and contact info is OK with me.
I simply hate unsubstantiated claims so if you want to pull this up and out of the mud, I suggest you get Travis a last name, an identity/web presence and the backing of his employer…plus the ability to confer with him on this subject.
What do ya know….?
Here is a public discussion a guy like Travis could jump into and perhaps save your reputation… or ruin his own for your benefit.
You have no proof to offer….right?
You have nothing but claims and testimonials that are no better than cardboard superhero cutouts…right?
X
For all who would like to believe/not believe, look at http://www.cecer.army.mil/techreports/Hock_MagneticDescalers/Hock_MagneticDescalers.pdf and you’ll find a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers report on these devices (large 4Mb file in .pdf format). Remember that in physics, any moving electric field will generate a moving magnetic field and vice versa, pay attention to page 34 and govern yourselves accordingly…
I paid special attention to page 34 and avoided the rest of the report.
If this is an authentic document with credentials that can be confirmed,page 34 pretty much says it all.
I am not completely familiar with the structure or interpretation of links such as the one you have posted but I must ask if there is any possibility of finding this PDF on a site that ends with “.org” or “.gov”?
To Rephrase this:
The .mil domain is restricted to US military use, so we can trust its authenticity. Page 34 is therefore rather damning – thanks for the link enb54!
To summarise Page 34:
Hi.
I bought a little plumber solo ( the battery operated one) 19 months ago directly from their web site..
I excitedly fitted and enjoyed testing the water. We waited and waited to see some difference in the water quality.
We are still cleaning the lime scale off shower heads. sinks kettles as much as we were before.
We live in a small 2 bedroom house,
We conntacted little plumber for a refund if promised 10 months after buying as no difference was noticed (they advised when i bought that i could have my money back if did not work)
Could i get my money back?? what do you reckon??
Ummmm. Dunno. Your tone suggests no, correct?
Paul
I keep an exact record of everyone who has ever bought directly from us. I do NOT remember anyone contacting us saying their LP SOLO didn’t work so why don’t you come forward and tell us who you really are?
There is no-one who having returned an LP has not received a refund immediately so I strongly suspect you are not who you say you are or have never asked for a refund !!!
Gavin
Paul provided an email address with his comment, so I’ve sent him a message to alert him to Gavin’s interest.
Paul,
Even if you get every cent back, you will have lost and they will have gained.
Aside from the fact that your time was wasted, you have been separated from your money and they have had control of it for many months.
Your ability to use that cash as you choose which could have included investing it became their ability to use that cash as they chose and will remain their cash up and until the instant it is back in your control…if it ever is.
You alone will not produce their wealth but many like you will feed the cash pool that will grow if properly managed…and if people keep sending them more money.
If I could just get enough people to send me enough money so that I could sit on it for a year or two before (possibly) returning (some of) it, I might never have to work again.
I would be somewhat surprised if you reported a full refund sometime in the future but even if you do, you have lost and they have gained.
You have heard the term “Time is Money” and that is in essence the truth for Wise investors including the honest ones and the others.
I realize that this is a lot to think about and could seem to confuse the issue but it may also help to clarify what is going on here (within this subject).
It does not appear to matter if your water pipes are protected, if your shower is spot free or if your tea kettle stays clean of scale… as long as a profit is being made… agreed?
I encourage all to refer to the comments submitted by enb54 as it seems to end the arguement.
Better yet, I encourage all to refer to the Link provided by this person.
Nonetheless, I know that this is not the end of the argument because nobody has stepped up (with authority) and demanded a “put up or shut up / prove it or cease and desist” order.
So long as there are people to be suckered, there will be people willing to make suckers of them!
W.C. Fields made two comments relative to suckers and water many years ago.
Hi Guys
Well here we are still selling those LITTLE PLUMBERS that “don’t” work. I think you’ll agree that 10 years is a long time to be selling products that “don’t” work and certainly some of our stockists like Delta Plumbing in Weymouth or Winchmore Hill Plumbing in London or 123 Plumbing and Heating in Poole must have been beseiged by queues of customers all demanding their money back. But do you know what the answer is NO they don’t have this problem and actually keep buying them from us.
Hi Gavin, to my eyes, the money back guarantee is a hollow sales gimmick: it does not prove that your devices work, because it costs customers additional money and upheaval beyond the initial fitting cost to remove and return one of your units.
Remember, I want your units to work, I would like the technology to be a success, so can you show us evidence that disagrees with the independent tests conducted by the US Military which appeared to refute claims that electronic limescale inhibitors (such as your Little Plumber range) work?
Gavin,
there are plenty of things out there that don’t work that continue to sell. Are we supposed to be impressed with the fact that you can make sales?
The “Pet Rock” made sales for the person that took it to market…and somehow, I find that somewhat respectable.
It was a joke…not a misrepresentation and when people bought the rock, they knew what they were getting.
Since you dont seem to be able to offer any real credentials, I will have to assume that your product and the pet rock apply similar concepts….however,I can’t remember if the rocks were guaranteed.
Gavin:
See Gavin Says: 07/29/2009
See Gavin Says: 08/28/2010
Paul… did you feel that you were buying a product that was guaranteed by the manufacturer or by the vendor?
Does the vendor ever guarantee the product?
Hi
Been away for a few days to Dorset.
I am keen to have this debate resolved as to whether “Paul” did try or attempt to try to return an LP SOLO to us for a refund. As mentioned, we keep a record of all direct sales through our internet site http://www.littleplumber.com so can easily trace him.
We do not however have a record of those products sold though our stockists.
Can the “Paul” who said he attempted to return the SOLO step forward.
Rich, you seem to agree with him so I expect you to make as much of an effort to resolve this as I intend to.
It’s quite one thing to question the efficacy of our products but quite another to state that we do not honour our money back guarantees. This is a commercially damaging accusation which at this stage we would like resolved amicably. But,the sooner the better!
Gavin
Email sent to Paul, lets see what happens.
Wow a debate.
Not who i say i am. Well i assure you i am Paul. I come from Bath..well just outside Bath.
I bought My little Plumber solo on a web site call great ideas or something..I’ll try and find details.. It,s got lots of enviromentaly sound gadgets on.
I call them and asked to return but they said i had 28 days under distant selling act or something.
If i can return direct to manufacturer that would be great. It still doesn’t work.
If i’m not Paul who am i ?? seems such a strange thing to say.
“Green thinking” that what it was called.. Ok i see my problem.. I said i had contacted little plumber direct…ooop !! Sorry.. I wasn’t sure who i contacted, thought my guarantee was with Green thinking not little plumber,,, Sorry to little plumber direct who i seem to have offended.
I can see your point. Was long time ago and i forget what i did yesterday let along my random internet transactions.
Rich,
I fear that I have not played nicely with Gavin.
Despite the fact that his arguments seem to be more of a diversion than anything else, he does at least deserve the opportunity to present conclusive factual evidence that his products do…well something.
Challenging the guarantee or demeaning it simply detracted from the real intent which was and is to prove that the devices are more than a bunch of Crapola.
Therefore, for the minute, I am dropping my challenge concerning guarantees, refunds and actual costs as this seems to be counterproductive.
All I want is some concrete proof and it appears that the only guarantee is that there is none to be had.
I really do not care about Guarantees…they NEVER recoup all that was lost.
Let us not waste any more time on what will be done if the product fails to perform and put the focus on proving that it does perform…before anybody wastes anymore money!
Agreed?
X
Hi
Richard, you don’t seem to have got round to “moderating” my last blog. I say that the name of the guy at the DeVere Hotel, Milton near Abingdon is Travis Butler and he is happy to take calls about our products from anyone who is seriously interested. If you recall it was our LP3 unit which for over 12 months has kept the Steam Generator clear of scale much to his delight and showing huge savings too.
With regard to Paul and the LP SOLO. We do supply a number of GREEN websites and Green Thinking is one of them. I have contacted them this morning to see if they know anything about a “Paul” trying to return a product to them. At the moment they don’t but they are investigating his claim.
While you are welcome to your views that Guarantees mean nothing I am afraid that those of us who live in the real world take them very seriously, In fact the Green Thinking site clearly states returns procedures for all its products so that a buyer knows before hand what his rights are.
While I accept that it’s great to keep a Blog running and I love this one! I think you should seriously consider what you say about manufacturers Guarantees in the future since as I have said before we take them very very seriously.
Cheers
Gavin
Hi Gavin, I have no idea what ‘your last “blog”‘ was. There’s nothing in the queue here, but you’re welcome to repost it – the last message from you was about your Dorset holiday. Lovely I’m sure: nice part of the world.
You’re also actively encouraged to present any evidence that refutes or questions the method of the US Military’s independent tests which suggest that products such as yours do not work.